Re the acute PA#3 angle, you mentioned the more acute it is, the more power is lessened because of more clubhead travel to release the clubhead.
Sorry, brained. never said that (and, unless its angle is intentionally zeroed out by gripping the club in the lifeline of the left hand, it's not true). You may be confusing #2 (Left Wrist Cock) and #3 (Left Wrist Roll). They are not the same.
The Left Wrist Uncocking motion -- from Cocked to fully Uncocked -- is true Lever Extension (2-P). The Left Wrist Rolling motion transfers that velocity into Impact, aligns the Clubface, and sustains -- in fact, is -- Rhythm.
I MISREAD THIS QUESTION. I READ IT TO MEAN A MORE INCREASED #3 ANGLE 'INCREASED' POWER (AND NOT 'LESSENED' IT, AS ACTUALLY STATED). SEE MY AMENDED RESPONSE IN POST #14 BELOW.
Sorry, brained. never said that (and, unless its angle is intentionally zeroed out by gripping the club in the lifeline of the left hand, it's not true). You may be confusing #2 (Left Wrist Cock) and #3 (Left Wrist Roll). They are not the same.
The Left Wrist Uncocking motion -- from Cocked to fully Uncocked -- is true Lever Extension (2-P). The Left Wrist Rolling motion transfers that velocity into Impact, aligns the Clubface, and sustains -- in fact, is -- Rhythm.
Mr. Yoda,
I am referring to the post below in the Archives on Power Package on PA3. I am particularly referring to the 3rd paragraph. It's mentioned below that the more acute the angle at setup, the more it takes longer to release, hence causing slower clubhead speed?
So, I guess you prefer taking advantage MAINLY of pa2 with pa3 transferring it to the clubhead, which is mainly velocity power?
Would you think it's possible, or maybe better, to take advantage MAINLY of pa3 with a more acute pa3 angle built-in right from setup, then rely MAINLY on rotational power via dual horizontal hinge, 1st hinge being the left shoulder/pivot and 2nd hinge being the left wrist by pronating it in BS and supinating it in DS intentionally, coming from early elbow plane upon transitioning? So, in effect doubling the CP force?
You said early release is required, would this be easier since you don't have to time it between transition and impact (prior to impact)? Especially for amateurs, because they'll just release right at transition?
I'm particularly interested in this because I find it greatly reduces dispersion. And for me, added distance and with a more boring trajectory.
Yoda
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6-B-3-0 Accumlator #3
Originally Posted by Phillygolf
So, at address, lower your hands - you are increasing accumulator #3 when you do that.
-Patrick
As part of the Alignment Routine of 2-J-1, the Grip should be taken at Impact Fix with the Left Wrist Flat, Level and Vertical. This also establishes the height of the Hands for Impact. Within the constraint of the Flat, Level and Vertical Left Wrist at its Impact Fix height, the #3 Accumulator Angle is established. If a greater #3 Angle is desired, the Club is positioned more under the Heel of the Hand. If less is desired, it is positioned more toward the Cup (but still under the Heel). If Zero #3 is desired, the Club is actually positioned in the Cup.
For simplicity and greater Power Control, most Short Strokes, especially Putts and Chips, should employ Zero #3. This is ideally accomplished as described above, i.e., Gripping the Club in the Cup of the Left Hand. However, at the player's option, it can also be done by Gripping the Club under the Heel of the Left Hand but with the Wrist in a Flat, Uncocked and Vertical condition at Fix.
Full Strokes, on the other hand, require the greater Power afforded by the #3 Accumulator. Interestingly, in this case -- as in so much of life -- more is not better. Absent special circumstances or psychological needs (which must be accomodated!), only a minimal amount of #3 Accumulator Angle should be used. That is because the more acute the #3 Angle, the sooner it must be Released. This creates a longer Release Interval and less than Full Power. Maximum yardage requires the use of the Snap Release and minimal #3 Accumulator. You still get the same Clubhead Travel and Rhythm (6-B-3-0) of the #3 Accumulator through Impact to the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight Position), but the minimal Release Interval (2-M-2) produces a smaller Clubhead Travel Time. Hence, more yardage.
And here is one final, very important point. The #3 Accumulator is called Transfer Power for a reason: Especially in the Sequenced Release (4-D-0) of Swingers, it transfers the Power of the Released #2 Accumulator (Left Wrist Cock) into the Rolling Left Forearm and Hand. You should deliberately attempt to Feel this happening and do everything you can to encourage its Action.
Here's how to do it: From the Top, Drag Load (7-19) by Pulling the Butt End of the Club toward the Plane Line. Immediately thereafter, begin a Non-Automatic Random Sweep Release (10-24-B) -- later you can 'kick it up a notch' with the Automatic Snap Release of 10-24-E -- by Uncocking your Left Wrist strongly Downward, also toward the Plane Line. That takes only a fraction of a second, and just as soon as you Feel the strong, Downward Uncocking Motion underway, use its momentum to begin the Roll of your #3 Angle On Line through Impact. You've Launched a Three-Stage Rocket: The Drag Load established your initial Thrust; your Uncocking Left Wrist created the highest Velocity you will be able to achieve; and the #3 Accumulator picked up that Velocity and sustained it into Impact.
With Practice, this Sequenced Release blends into a single unified Motion and creates truly effortless, mystifying and almost magical Power. And when you get it right...
You're not going to believe it!
__________________
Yoda
Re the acute PA#3 angle, you mentioned the more acute it is, the more power is lessened because of more clubhead travel to release the club head.
[Bold emphasis by Yoda.]
Originally Posted by brianid
Mr. Yoda,
I am referring to the post below in the Archives on Power Package on PA3. I am particularly referring to the 3rd paragraph below [where you mention] that the more acute the angle at setup, the more it takes longer to release, hence causing slower clubhead speed?
AMENDMENT TO MY POST #11 ABOVE
In my Post #11, I had read brianid's quote to say that the more acute #3 Angle increased Power (which is the only way readers have interpreted this Angle in posts over the past seven years!). Sorry 'bout that!
The more acute #3 Angle definitely can result in a lower Clubhead Speed. However, it is incorrect to state that the Power is lessened because of "additional Clubhead Travel". Unless #3 is zeroed, #3 Clubhead Travel is identical (at all Clubhead Speeds) for any amount of Angle and for both Horizontal and Angled Hinge Action. The 'No Roll' of Vertical Hinge Action effectively zeroes the #3 Accumulator (which, by definition, negates the #3 "Roll").
So, if the distance the Clubhead travels (to the end of the Follow-Through and its Both Arms Straight position / Section 11) doesn't lessen Power, then what does? Answer: The longer Release Arc, e.g., if you double the travel time (of the Release), you halve the travel rate. Study 2-M-2 and 6-N-0.
So, at address, lower your hands - you are increasing accumulator #3 when you do that.
-Patrick
This quote, now correctly formatted to avoid any attribution to me, is simply wrong. The #3 Angle is established solely by the angle formed between the Clubshaft and the Left Arm when the Grip is taken with the left wrist in a Level Condition.
"Low" Hands simply means that the left wrist has been Cocked. Beating a dead horse, Cocking the left wrist does NOT increase the #3 Accumulator Angle. However, a FULLY-Uncocked Left Wrist does zero it (a useful procedure for Chipping and Putting where the Club has been gripped under the heel of the left hand, and minimum Power is desired).
I like PA3 and maximizing the angle in MY swing. The longer release arc causing clubhead speed--what do you think can remedy this? I think because if the longer release arc, the person have to be stronger and faster to recover the lost ch speed. I for now think this can be remedied, until I get stronger enough, with the help of the "3 right hands". I do an intentional and independent supination of the left arm/elbow/forearm/hand and the right hand. Both of them releasing pa3, making sure the left wrist is flat and level always at transition until impact. I full release right from the start, right after transition, on elbow plane, around p5.
You think I'm on the right track? Anything I might be missing?
Re the acute PA#3 angle, you mentioned the more acute it is, the more power is lessened because of more clubhead travel to release the clubhead. Is it possible to instead focus on this, I mean maximize the clubhead travel and turn it to your advantage?
My "compensation" is this. I release right from the top of the swing. Sweep release. But my rlease just focuses on the release of PA#3 and PA#4, with everything else done to preserve the PA#3 angle as much as possible. I release PA#4 by firing the hips aggressively to start the DS from top and then aggressive turn of shoulders and arms. I release PA#3 with an independent and intentional supination of left forearm/wrist. The everything else are flat and level wrist at impact fix, pitch elbow, weak grip, bent right wrist/PP1, flat lies, low hands, butt of grip under the heel of palm, early elbow plane, and long thumb.
I don't feel a power drain on this. I achieve and ENSURE lag, greater clubhead travel translates to more momentum I think, so faster clubhead speed at impact, and best of all, tremendous accuracy. I never thought supination as fast as I can won't make the ball hook. Slight pulls, yes, but no hooks. And in a 56 degree wedge, I added 20 yards. Supination, as said by Hogan, in deed result to cleaner strikes as well, so more consistent sweet spot strikes, with the delofting of face resulting to lower shots/anti-wind shots, hence longer balls.
Anything you think is/are amiss in the above?
Sincerely.
Good stuff in this thread....a few things to watch/monitor in this regard....
1. How is the clubface aligned in your hand when you grip it? If it is closed/shutty when you grip it that could cause the pull issue.....pay attention to how much "shaft lean" you program into your grip...if you program in a considerable amount of lean in your grip i.e. take the grip with the shaft leaning waaaaay more than vertical then if you don't deliver that amount of shaft lean to the ball...pull city.
2. Pay attention to your hand path....remember it is the CLUBHEAD that is thrown out to the ball....not your hands...if your hands are getting "out and away" from you and you focus on "releasing #3"...you could get pulls and wipes....not saying that is the issue but if it is try this drill...you want the left arm staying "in" and the hands "in on plane" as the clubhead travels out on plane to the ball. So take your grip left hand only. Place your right hand on your left elbow and pin it to your body where it would be at address. Now just take the club up like a chipping type motion with your left hand...from there use your left hand to THROW the club head out into the ground..out to the plane line....no pivot just isolate the #2 and #3 accumulators...so you are basically just going to throw/dump the club into the ground well back of where the ball would be...you would be hitting a huge fat shot...have the sweetspot looking at the ground earlier...not out to the right...throw the sweetspot into the ground well behind the ball with your left arm pinned.....you'll isolate how #3 has to work with your hands in and not out away from you....
from there the question becomes...how do I get to the ball...that's where your pivot comes in...your right shoulder moving forward and out to the plane line will bring all that #3 and #2 motion forward....but the drill is just to isolate how the work as your left arm/hands to race out and away from you.
My balls now are boring, lower. My misses are mostly pulls, but slight only. Becomes large pulls only if I forgot to initiate the hips at p4/transition.
But I'm afraid I may be doing one or two things incompatible with this system/pattern that may put a monkey wrench on it later on. Or, I'm missing something that will make it eventually break down. Happens a lot you know.
Any advise on some BS requirements in this pattern, if any? Elbow plane up to p3, with slight shift to shoulder plane nearing top?
How about educated hands? Swiveling left hand and bending right wrist (coming from level but bent left wrist at setup with mid-body position), then cocking right elbow?
Good stuff in this thread....a few things to watch/monitor in this regard....
1. How is the clubface aligned in your hand when you grip it? If it is closed/shutty when you grip it that could cause the pull issue.....pay attention to how much "shaft lean" you program into your grip...if you program in a considerable amount of lean in your grip i.e. take the grip with the shaft leaning waaaaay more than vertical then if you don't deliver that amount of shaft lean to the ball...pull city.
2. Pay attention to your hand path....remember it is the CLUBHEAD that is thrown out to the ball....not your hands...if your hands are getting "out and away" from you and you focus on "releasing #3"...you could get pulls and wipes....not saying that is the issue but if it is try this drill...you want the left arm staying "in" and the hands "in on plane" as the clubhead travels out on plane to the ball. So take your grip left hand only. Place your right hand on your left elbow and pin it to your body where it would be at address. Now just take the club up like a chipping type motion with your left hand...from there use your left hand to THROW the club head out into the ground..out to the plane line....no pivot just isolate the #2 and #3 accumulators...so you are basically just going to throw/dump the club into the ground well back of where the ball would be...you would be hitting a huge fat shot...have the sweetspot looking at the ground earlier...not out to the right...throw the sweetspot into the ground well behind the ball with your left arm pinned.....you'll isolate how #3 has to work with your hands in and not out away from you....
from there the question becomes...how do I get to the ball...that's where your pivot comes in...your right shoulder moving forward and out to the plane line will bring all that #3 and #2 motion forward....but the drill is just to isolate how the work as your left arm/hands to race out and away from you.
Hello 12pbucket,
Thanks for the response and the drill.
What's the rationale for the sweetspot/clubface facing the ground immediately? To train the hands for immediate release, immediate/full release from top? As Mr. Yoga said, clubhead release arc is longer with more PA3 angle, so have to release immediately, correct? Any advice for the right hand/arm participation and timing?
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