I chart greens -grid them 5X5 and then use a level to find the fall line in each square. Then I roll balls to check my notes. That's one of the reasons I'm called 'Overkill' However, I believe putting is really all about speed and feel.
WOW! Talk about an info database! You guys are good!
What, if anything, is given to all caddies each week in terms of charting/course info? Just pin sheets?
With all the computer images and charting that the TV commentators have access to, do caddies or players ever get access to the computerized course layouts?
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2. Not much difference between the two. Most guys don,t curve it very much anyway. I'd say the tour mixture would be about even.
1. Absolutely. When the tour gets the course just how it wants it. When the greens go to a color I call purple (it's beyond brown), and the greens are so firm the first hop goes as high as a flagstick, The ability to hit the ball high with alot of spin rules the day. The guys that have that ability also tend to hit it really far.
When it is soft, the high launch--high spin guys can struggle to manage backspin. It is very difficult to get at back pins.
Then, you have the wind. You might think they all knock it down, or only the low hitters do well. Really it is the mixture of solid striking and great short game. They do tend to knock down the short irons, which are the hardest to control in a breeze.
So the ideal player is long with medium to high flight, with a great short game, and can't miss putting. You knew that already. The rest of the guys have to play that much better as a percentage of their abilities (get the most out of their games).
What, if anything, is given to all caddies each week in terms of charting/course info? Just pin sheets?
With all the computer images and charting that the TV commentators have access to, do caddies or players ever get access to the computerized course layouts?
ED
I'll try this again, I think I got my cookies mixed up earlier, or something.
Two companies produce yd bks on a regular basis for each Tour event. They are a good starting point, however, you have to watch for errors and of course you need to make notes to match your pro's game. Some pros carry bks some do not, Either way you must be ready.
I used to spend a lot of time checking every number and making changes if one was even out a yd. But, over the years, I have learned that scoring takes place on the greens so that is where I spend most of my time now.
When I first go to a new course I try to get a look at the original blue prints for the greens (grn supt) and how the course was layed out. I also ask the supt about greens than are a little firmer or softer and any that have been doctored up in the last year. Then I spend about on hr on each hole doing my charts etc.
On a course, like Congressional next week, where I have both played and caddied, I just check for changes which takes about 4 hrs.
Caddies are given pin sheets for each day starting on Thursday. Once again, if the course is new to me, I like to go out in front of the first group, if I have time, and laser all the pins against the pin sheet. Both Hen and I have found pins to be off as much as 5 or 6 yds (also on the wrong side of the green), either because of mistakes or because they were not measued from the direction of play
A caddie still working on Tour grew up in the same neighborhood as me...I haven't seen him in a while but it was very exciting seeing him "on the job" when at PGA Tour events here in SoCal. Maybe you can say hi to him for me..his name is Andy Martinez...he has had an incredible career himself..been privileged to carry some bigtime bags over the years.
A caddie still working on Tour grew up in the same neighborhood as me...I haven't seen him in a while but it was very exciting seeing him "on the job" when at PGA Tour events here in SoCal. Maybe you can say hi to him for me..his name is Andy Martinez...he has had an incredible career himself..been privileged to carry some bigtime bags over the years.
Thanks
HG
H
I see Andy quite often, we have had some good chats, will pass on your hello
I used to spend a lot of time checking every number and making changes if one was even out a yd. But, over the years, I have learned that scoring takes place on the greens so that is where I spend most of my time now.
When I first go to a new course I try to get a look at the original blue prints for the greens (grn supt) and how the course was layed out. I also ask the supt about greens than are a little firmer or softer and any that have been doctored up in the last year. Then I spend about on hr on each hole doing my charts etc.
On a course, like Congressional next week, where I have both played and caddied, I just check for changes which takes about 4 hrs.
Caddies are given pin sheets for each day starting on Thursday. Once again, if the course is new to me, I like to go out in front of the first group, if I have time, and laser all the pins against the pin sheet. Both Hen and I have found pins to be off as much as 5 or 6 yds (also on the wrong side of the green), either because of mistakes or because they were not measued from the direction of play
Killah . . . How do you do the greens? You section them off and use a level? Do you putt to or roll balls? How does the process work? Are you guys using this info on approach shots as well? Like if your dude puts hook putts better do you consider that from the fairway?
Killah . . . How do you do the greens? You section them off and use a level? Do you putt to or roll balls? How does the process work? Are you guys using this info on approach shots as well? Like if your dude puts hook putts better do you consider that from the fairway?
Thanks!
Beeeeee
Bucket,
I'll leave the first part for OK. We do use the info for the approach shots. But not in the way you asked. We don't look for right to left, but on severe greens we are going for uphill. We always have the slopes marked to have a better idea what the ball will do when it lands. Stop. Spin. Skip. We also give the kind of numbers we talked about in reference to a trap carry for tiers in the green
Westchester pins are my favorite. They have these tiny little tiers so you give numbers like: 78 front and 24--102 hole. It's 99 and 3. 106 backedge. Even with a sandwedge, the pro does not want to fly it up there and risk skipping it over and down the dropoff into the rough. So now he wants the number where it's flat just short of the ridge so he can try to skip it up with a low wedge. Say that number is 94. That's his target. Sometimes it skips perfect, other times it will catch the ridge and leave a 30 footer over the tier. Not the worst outcome.
We would do the same for a false front or a green that slopes toward you for part and then away. Very important to be on the right side of those slopes. All the info is used to define the target number to hit the shot. Some guys then feel that number while some would think "94."
I am now one of those number guys. I don't take it back this far or whatever. I just think 75 and swing. It's how I practice, too. Check with laser and dial it in. It does make it tough for me to play without a book or a laser as I sometimes have to do.
I'll leave the first part for OK. We do use the info for the approach shots. But not in the way you asked. We don't look for right to left, but on severe greens we are going for uphill. We always have the slopes marked to have a better idea what the ball will do when it lands. Stop. Spin. Skip. We also give the kind of numbers we talked about in reference to a trap carry for tiers in the green
Westchester pins are my favorite. They have these tiny little tiers so you give numbers like: 78 front and 24--102 hole. It's 99 and 3. 106 backedge. Even with a sandwedge, the pro does not want to fly it up there and risk skipping it over and down the dropoff into the rough. So now he wants the number where it's flat just short of the ridge so he can try to skip it up with a low wedge. Say that number is 94. That's his target. Sometimes it skips perfect, other times it will catch the ridge and leave a 30 footer over the tier. Not the worst outcome.
We would do the same for a false front or a green that slopes toward you for part and then away. Very important to be on the right side of those slopes. All the info is used to define the target number to hit the shot. Some guys then feel that number while some would think "94."
I am now one of those number guys. I don't take it back this far or whatever. I just think 75 and swing. It's how I practice, too. Check with laser and dial it in. It does make it tough for me to play without a book or a laser as I sometimes have to do.
Thanks dude! Are you and the guys thinking "number" with every club or just shorter irons? How do you practice to get good a hitting it a specific yardage? And how tight are the tolerances?
Thanks dude! Are you and the guys thinking "number" with every club or just shorter irons? How do you practice to get good a hitting it a specific yardage? And how tight are the tolerances?
Word.
B
Bucket,
I am always thinking number. I consider every factor and come up with a number that I think the shot will play. I want to be as definite as I can. I would say "it's five yards downhill for 157" rather than "it's 165 and down half a club." I want to define the shot as much as possible. "We want to land it 167." I will do this with every shot except greenside, including tee shots.
While my player is putting, I'm looking at the wind and considering the next tee shot. The player needs to let his mind wander or engage on non-golf subjects in between shots to keep fresh. I do that too, but I want to be a step ahead of his thinking. I don't have to stay in the present.
Although I want to come up with my info and decision as quickly as possible, I usually wait for the player to ask what we have--esp. if we have to wait for the group in front. Some guys want the number as soon as possible--to have longer to consider shot--others want to keep the same rhythm of number, target, club, routine, go.
What the player does with my information is totally up to him. He is going to have a stock number for each club and a way to add or subtract yardage to hit the shots in between. How he translates the number to his swing is up to him. I know TGM would have definite ideas about how to vary yardage
Even though I am a total numbers guy, I am going to trust my intuition. On every shot, I get a gut reaction to the shot--more likely than not--that will be the club I'll go with. I want to define the target number as much as possible in real terms and react to that number.
Many players stop using numbers when they get close enough to walk up and have a look. They just trust their eyes and feel. I think Reigger has posted about that.
People often ask me how it works and how much discussion there is. On every shot, I want to decide what I think the club is before I talk to the player about it. Say I think it's an eight and he says "eight?" -- I say "Yep." That's how it goes on most shots. It's what we do, and most shots are not that tough to figure out.
What if he says "seven?" First, I try to figure out how he came up with the club. I run it again in my head. I might ask about the type of shot he wants to hit or if he wants to take something out of play. Maybe he wants to hit it down or curve it with or against the wind. Pros have enough shots that they could hit at least three different clubs from each spot. I want them to choose the most straight forward shot unless there is a compelling reason to do something different. I think regular shots are more consistent.
When we initially think two different clubs, we have to find a way to get on the same page. I may back off and let him hit what he thinks. The more positive he behaves about the selection, the more likely I am to let him go. It's like walking up to a putt and seeing the whole track it will take to the hole. You know it will go in. When a player feels a shot like this, you just get out of the way. Often the best rounds work this way. They have confidence in every facet of their games, so they think well. When you work for the same guy for a while you get a real sense for this. Some days they just have a really good feel.
It changes day to day, and you have to read how sharp they are thinking. This forum started with John Wood helping Mahan define his shot on the last hole. It's not always the pressure packed situations. Often, a player feels out of sorts. There are a variety of causes. Lack of sleep, tough schedule, rain delays, etc. Maybe he's just butchered a hole and his head is off. The more in tune you are to your player, the better your sense of when to take a stand.
Once in a while, I feel so strongly about a club that I'll say "NO, It's this club." I might have to make my case by referencing the shots we have hit this week or this day. It usually comes down to reading the lie or the wind. There might be a factor that one of two has overlooked that has the other leaning towards another club. In order to get the most out of his caddie, the player must be able to handle these conversations, decide, and commit to the shot. The player must own the decision. Otherwise, the caddie would be concerned that by expressing his opinion, he will put the player off. Then he can't help his player.
Practicing. Easy way. We use the laser on the range to determine the distance of each flag. You will often see a caddie walk down the side of the range and drop targets (towels or buckets) at specific wedge distances like 30, 40, 50, etc. Guys do that more with new wedges, or if they are stuggling with a particular shot. The best practice areas will have greens allowing the players to hit wedges to flags from every distance.
Tolerances. The goal in practice is to make tight little piles of ball. They will often hit away from the flags to a clear spot where they can keep track of their patterns. When a player is really dialed in, he may have trouble understanding the outcome of shots with a particular club. Many times, we have had our lofts checked (and found them off) based on shots on the course. Forged clubs often change and need to be checked frequently.
Killah . . . How do you do the greens? You section them off and use a level? Do you putt to or roll balls? How does the process work? Are you guys using this info on approach shots as well? Like if your dude puts hook putts better do you consider that from the fairway?
Thanks!
Beeeeee
Bucket
How was that for a finish///// Congrats to BB he's a great guy
The Tour places most of the pins 3 or 4 paces from the edges; so that is where I spend a lot of time. I start at the front and every 5 paces (4 fr edge) I take a reading with my level / left and right, down the middle and accross the back. The level, by the way is round disk about 8" in diam; (looks like a fris). I then do the ridges and finally roll balls. We are not allowed to use a putter/ I found that out the first Tourn. I worked on the old Nike Tour/ I was out on a green putting away and an official came along and told me that he did not think I could use a putter. I asked if he could check and by the time he got back to me I was finished //////
I also roll balls between the sprinkler heads that surround the green; this gives me another view of how longer putts might react
By the way the level I use came from England and was never put on the market that I am aware of.
A little story to go with this;
Pres Cup 2000
I went to the course a week before the matchs and spend the time doing my own book and charting the greens. Last match on Sunday the guys are tied; seventeenth green, other player has made par and my man has 6 or 7' for birdie and the lead. I'm standing over at he side of the green; both teams are there because it is the last match//(the Cup has been won but if my man wins his match it will be the most points ever) My man asked me to look at the put, I don't move I just tell him the put is straight; everyone laughs; someone says you din't even look; I say I don't have to, its straight;;; My pro says well can I put it left centre, I like left centre. I said sure, left centre, right centre, whichever fits your eye///the puts straight.
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